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From Jocko Podcast

509: The Need to Lead: Lessons from Dogfights, Dunker Drills, and Ego Checks. With Dave Berke.

2:11:30
October 8, 2025
Jocko Podcast
https://feeds.redcircle.com/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74

What if the cockpit holds a better manual for life than any business school?

David Burke's book arrives like a pilot’s checklist for the messy parts of leadership. He trades war stories for hard-earned rules: humility matters more than rank, detachment is a practical skill, and perfection is a mirage that hides fatal complacency. I read the passages feeling equal parts impressed and unnerved — impressed by the precision of his thinking, unnerved because the mistakes he confesses are the same ones I’ve watched repeat at boardrooms and barracks alike.

From carrier decks to combat zones — leadership that translates

Burke frames authority the old-fashioned way: as responsibility. He opens with a Ramadi vignette where inaction nearly cost lives and a Top Gun classroom story where a seemingly superior tactic loses to situational reality. Those two scenes bookend a broader claim: leadership principles are not context-dependent tricks. They travel from flight decks to family dinners, and they work because they focus on human decisions, not credentials.

Here's what stood out about his approach

He refuses tidy hero narratives. Instead, he gives us the moments when he failed, squirmed, and learned. That choice matters. Lessons stick better when they come wrapped in honest regret. Burke lays out five foundational beliefs early on: everyone is a leader, leadership exists in every capacity, every problem is a leadership problem, leadership is a skill, and humility is essential. Those axioms feel deceptively simple until you see how often they are violated in real life.

Three scenes that teach like a masterclass

The Ramadi patrol where he was pinned under crossfire is visceral. You can feel the heat of the tracers in his prose; you can also feel the paralyzing weight of assumed powerlessness. His takeaway is crisp: when you choose inaction because you believe you cannot control the weather, the enemy, or the circumstances, you cede the only thing you actually can control — your leadership.

The Top Gun dogfight he recounts is theater-level thrilling but pedagogically measured. Burke starts confident, loses the initiative, then embraces a different role — tying up the enemy so his wingman could finish the job. Leadership here was not choreography for one man; it was decentralized and tactical, and those quieter choices mattered more than bravado.

The carrier landings sequence is almost painful to read because of how human it is. Multiple "bolters" and the sting of public correction force him out of denial. The lesson lands: perfection isn’t required, but acceptance of small deviations and rapid corrective action are non-negotiable.

Lessons you can apply before coffee

  • Lead before you’re appointed: prepare teams, anticipate risks, and create simple, executable plans.
  • Make humility operational: swap judgment for curiosity and trade “they” talk for questions about your own role.
  • Detach to think: use deliberate calm under pressure — a practiced pause beats reflexive panic.
  • Prioritize and execute: choose the single most important problem and act decisively on it.
  • Target corrections, not perfection: seek continuous small improvements, not mythical flawless performance.

Why this reads like more than a military manual

Burke's tone is that of a teacher who has scrubbed his own hubris raw. He borrows the dramatic trappings of fighter-pilot lore but keeps returning to the human work: getting people to show up, admit mistakes, and improve. That makes the book useful for managers, parents, coaches, and anyone who leads by influence rather than by title.

What really caught my attention

The water-survival anecdote — the cockpit dunker — crystallizes what detachment looks like in practice. It’s one thing to recommend composure; it’s another to demonstrate a training regimen that forces calm and then to show how that calm maps onto boardroom blowups. This is practical psychology disguised as military training.

Burke’s writing also nails the slightly humiliating truth about ego: self-awareness is the rarest skill. His peer-review story from The Basic School — the moment he discovers his teammates think he ‘already thinks he’s the best’ — is the social sting that reorients him. That kind of moral clarity is magnetic; I found myself wanting to be better not because he commanded it, but because he modeled the cost of not being better.

Where the book surprises

He resists glorifying single acts of courage. Instead, Burke elevates sustained, often unglamorous actions: carrying a comrade’s heavier pack, coaching someone through a test, or standing down one’s ego in a meeting. Those quiet behaviors accumulate into dominance more predictably than any one dramatic play.

He also reframes the status quo: many problems labeled “operational” or “technical” are actually leadership problems. If you start there, solutions become practical and within reach. That shift from blame to ownership is the book’s most practical pivot.

A reflective thought

After listening to Burke I kept asking myself a small question: when the pressure rises, what will I do first — act, analyze, or hide? The weight of his stories suggests a simple test. If your first impulse isn’t to calm, assess, and lead, you already know the work you need to do.

Key points

  • Dave Burke draws leadership lessons from roles as a Top Gun instructor and Marine F/A-18 pilot.
  • Battle of Ramadi (2006) stories illustrate leadership failures and the cost of inaction.
  • Core belief: every problem is ultimately a leadership problem, regardless of context.
  • Detachment training (water survival) becomes a metaphor for emotional control under stress.
  • Perfection is unattainable; timely corrections and calm adjustments are the real goals.
  • Humility transformed Burke during peer reviews and reshaped how he served teammates.
  • Complacency in the cockpit nearly cost a dogfight; rigorous execution prevents small failures.

Timecodes

00:00 Ramadi forward and opening leadership framing
00:09 Top Gun final‑mission dogfight and flight leadership lesson
00:21 Ramadi foot patrol pinned under crossfire
00:33 Peer review humility moment at The Basic School
01:08 Naval Air Station Fallon complacency dogfight
00:58 Carrier landing bolter and "perfection is a lie" sequence

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